Why Experiences Boost The Bottom Line at Taiga Resorts - with Neville Isaac

Fran (00:00): Hi everyone, my name is Fran. I'm the co-founder of Turneo and welcome to another in a series of conversations on experiential hospitality.

With me today is Neville Isaac, Director of Revenue Management at Taiga Resorts. Welcome, Neville.

Neville (00:19): Thanks Fran, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here and happy to talk about these things. It's a very interesting area.

Fran (00:26): Well, maybe to start with, let's do a short introduction. Can you tell our audience a bit about you, who you are, and how you ended up at Taiga Resorts?

Neville (00:35): Okay. My name is Neville Isaac. I am Scottish. Although I live in Madrid in Spain, where I've been for 20 years now. So actually Madrid is the city that I've lived in the longest in my whole life. So I'm half Spanish really. I'm a... Sorry. Yes. Yeah.

Fran (00:52): Wow. Fluent in Spanish, I assume? Fluent in Spanish, I assume?

Neville (00:57): It would be very difficult to work in Spain without speaking Spanish.

I am a hotelier. I came into the business by mistake. Started as a waiter, worked my way up to becoming a general manager. I was a general manager in boutique properties in London. Then I moved to Spain 20 years ago. Whilst I was in London, I started to specialize in revenue management. When I came to Spain, I was working in revenue management. for a company called HotelREZ, which is a British company. And then I was 11 years in NH Hotel Group, which is a very large Spanish multinational, which is now part of Minor Hotels. And in NH, I set up the revenue management department in Spain and Portugal. I also worked in distribution and head office for a few years. And then my final few years in NH, was working as the global director of revenue management tools, processes and training. So I set up the training program, standardized processes, chose which tech was the best for us to use. So that was very fun. And then I took a leap over to the other side. I got bored of, I wanted to try something a bit different. So I moved to the dark side and became a vendor.

So I worked for a SaaS company called BEONx, previously called Beonprice. And we commercialized a revenue management system for hotels.

I did that for five years during which we had COVID in between, which was fun. Interestingly, one of the reasons that I left NH is I wanted to try something a bit different within the sector, but it served for me to realise, I had a great time there, but it served me to realise that my real vocation is on the accommodation provider side of things.

I'm a hotelier at heart, basically. So then I started to look for something a bit different and the job came up in Taiga through some contacts that I had, some previous colleagues. And I never imagined I'd end up doing this, but Taiga Resorts is a new company. We launched the brand last year. We work in the camping space, often called open air hospitality now these days. we've got currently nine campsites that we own and operate in Spain. Number 10 is about to be plugged in. And there are several more in the pipeline. So our intention is to be the leading operator of campsites in Spain and Portugal. So it's similar to hotels in many respects and also. different in some respects. So it's been a very interesting experience. It's great fun. It's a sector with massive potential. So I'm really enjoying it, I have to say.

Fran (03:58): Fantastic. Wow. So from, you know, being a waiter to being a GM, to being a vendor or a tech person, back to hospitality and now being in camping, which is a fantastic area to be in. Everyone loves the outdoors today. Camp. I'm a big camper. I love camping. It's that feeling that you don't have to exit a room and then come back into it, but you're constantly outside something

Very special.

Brilliant. So as you know, on this podcast, we talk a lot about experiences in hospitality. And one of the premises that we base our work on is the fact that people travel to experience things. Em Is it the same in camping? And can you tell us a bit more about Taiga's approach to experiences and experiential hospitality?

Neville (04:50): I mean, I would actually say that the experience economy is at the heart of camping. And more so than in hotels, actually. One of the things that surprised me, I wasn't a typical campsite customer before I started in Taiga. I think I'd been on camping when I was in the Boy Scouts and then maybe once or twice in adult life.

One thing that differentiates campings from hotels is that there's an incredible amount of customer loyalty. There's incredible engagement and not via fancy loyalty programs and cards and points and things, but just by experience. And when people go to a campsite, you have this very close relationship with the destination. you have a very close relationship with nature. Most campsites, or certainly in our case, our campsites are in amazing natural destinations where you're very close to nature. And people go to have experiences in the destination. So it's very linked to open air, to experience, to nature, to sustainability. and you go to a campsite to have an experience. It's equally as important as what kind of accommodation you're staying in. And most campsites have various different categories of accommodation, but it's really about the experience that you have when you're there. And this experience that you have creates loyalty as well. So it's kind of like a virtuous circle. And I was most surprised when I started in this sector. to find out that the rate of repeat business in a campsite is exponentially higher than in any hotel chain or any hotel, much higher. And it's partly to do with the customer experience.

Fran (06:52): Absolutely. I've been in the same campsite from the ages of three to the ages of 21, I think, with my family. Not just the same campsite, the same lot at the campsite. And what I've heard you just say, I think, is people decide on where to go camping based on the experiences in the destination they can do, based on the nature, based on that they can go fishing or biking or hiking. But also they decide on whether to come back. based on the experiences that they've experienced or perhaps haven't had the chance to experience on their first, let's say, visit. So building loyalty, but also actually driving guest decisions on their stay, right?

Neville (07:34): Exactly. I mean, we, it's interesting what you say, because we have people who've been coming for 40 years in the same week, in the same plot, in the same campsite. And they're actually, there's fathers and children and grandchildren who are carrying on with that tradition. And that's to do with the experience that they're being provided with by the campsite. So it's really interesting.

Fran (08:01): Yeah, yeah. And would you say that experience is part in hospitality? Easy, hard, easier than rooms or camps or harder than that? How do you manage that at Taiga?

Neville (08:11): I mean, we have, there's two different levels here. And again, this is perhaps slightly different to a hotel. All campsites have animation. So we have a team of people who provide different experiences for the customers, for the kids and for adults. There's a lot of sporting activity, et cetera, et cetera. And all campsites have this. In fact, if you didn't have it, no one would come. But then what we also do at Taiga is we want to offer experiences additional to that. So in all of our campsites, we have agreements with local companies who provide experiences. And this also has to do with being part of your destination. So they're local experiences.

So for example, we have a campsite in the Ebro Delta, which is in Catalonia in Spain, and it's where the river Ebro comes out to the sea. And we have an experience where you can go and visit the mussel farms and taste the mussels, which is very local experience to that destination. In Tarifa in the south of Spain, which is famous for surfing. Have surf experiences, kitesurf. So we try and add to our own offering, offering with third parties, but which is adds to the local experience. Have some gastronomy things. We have a really interesting, cool thing in the one in Tarragona that I mentioned before. There's actually a place nearby that makes sake. because the Ebro Delta is famous for rice. Rice is produced there to make paella. And there's a Spanish couple have made a sake fabrication there. And it's a really interesting experience as well. So we try and find things that are bit more unique. And this really adds to you experiencing the destination in a different way.

Having said that, it's a lot of work because we have to go and negotiate locally with all the people. First, we have to select people we think are interesting. Then we have to negotiate with them. Then we have to sign a contract with them. Then we have to work out how we're going to work together because the logistics are difficult. So it's a massive amount of work for us to do this. And then we also try. Part of what we do is we offer these experiences as an add-on in the booking process when you book a room or book a pitch or a tent. And there's also some big challenges around that. It's very worthwhile. It's very labor intensive.

Fran (11:11): Yeah, because the worthwhile part is interesting, especially from coming from you as a revenue manager, because you said a lot of great things there, but one sentence that stuck and I just wrote it down is, said, if you didn't have it, you said experiences, no one would come. And then at the same time, sometimes I hear from revenue managers, especially given that you've spent maybe 10, 20, 30 years, very focused on room revenue. Now suddenly like additional or ancillary revenue. is perhaps, well, if you look at it separately, you'd think, well, it's not adding that much, but actually it's adding the core revenue, right? So suddenly you've got revenue managers focusing on it.

Neville (11:49): Yeah, I have a different perspective than maybe other revenue managers might have. We don't make very much money out of experiences in terms of the fact that we have a deal with a third party and we maybe have a very, very small margin. But it enables us to attract business. So in my opinion, it helps us increase our rooms revenue because we have this offering.

And there is an additional benefit, which is very important. And it's actually very important in terms of us capturing demand outside of holiday season, because campsites are fairly divided between high season and low season in terms of when people are on holiday. We capture a lot of group business. midweek, in mid season and low season, because we offer packages, which is an experience with activities and gastronomy. And those people would go somewhere else. So even though we're not making a lot of money or margin on the activities, we're capturing a lot of demand when we really need it. For us, the experience part and the activity part is central to our strategy.

Fran (13:10): And I think the fact that you are mixing in-house and external activities, as you've mentioned, is so important for the whole ecosystem of tourism in a destination, right? Because it is an ecosystem. You've got people working perhaps at your resorts and campsites from the local community, but then you also have local businesses participating in it. And if you didn't have them, your guests wouldn't have anything to do. And if they didn't have you, they wouldn't maybe have guests. the ability to sleep anywhere,

Neville (13:40): Exactly. Yeah. It's in that respect, it's a kind of ecosystem oh of local companies and they're normally small businesses, local businesses. And it really sort of one feeds the other. So,

Fran (13:57): Yeah.

Neville (13:58): And it's really good for business out of season as well, both for us and for them, because they have the same issues in terms of the fact that when it's not school holidays. there's a lot less demand. So if we can create packages and experiences to attract people from different segments, then that really works for everyone.

Fran (14:19): Yeah. And you've mentioned some challenges. If we move on to a little bit on the digital or tech side, but also where guests are moving, you've obviously mentioned the challenge of having to source these providers and find them. And your local GMs usually know what's hot in the area at the time. You mentioned them negotiating and then actually managing that relationships. I'm guessing guests have to book this. There has to be some availability. Are there any other challenges then, let's say once you've set up those third party providers?

Are there any other challenges and maybe what kind of solutions help you or would help you or might help you in overcoming these?

Neville (14:54): I mean, the big challenge we have once the experience is once you've found the provider and once you've agreed a deal and once you've signed the contracts. One of the big challenges that we have is how do we. How do we sell this? So. We publicize all of these things on our website, so as an area of our website dedicated to experiences and we talk about all of the things that we offer.

However, we also offer them during the booking process on our website. So when you book a room, then it comes up, you can either add extras or add activities. We occasionally sell packages. All package bundled together with different activities and different hats, meals, but if for example you're going to our campsite in Lake Caspe which is in Aragon in the interior which is a place that's famous for fishing and we actually we're on the we're actually on the lake and we have boats you might want to hire a boat but if you're booking for seven nights you might want a boat for one day and you might want it on the Wednesday because you're doing something that day we normally don't have the capacity for that to be fully seamless. So you would book, perhaps on the website, so you'd book your room, then you book, I want to hire a boat. But the actual, the rest of that process is manual. So it would come to reception, you get an email, reception would do something in a book, or it's not digitalized at all. So the experience of booking a room is seamless, but the experience of booking the additional add-ons that your particular activities and experiences is not seamless at all. So that's a big challenge. It's a big challenge also because a lot of our suppliers are small businesses and local and they don't necessarily have a lot of Cause we could potentially do it, but often they can't. So it... that it occasionally creates some issues. Also, there's some issues in terms of not having real-time availability. So for example, in our campus site in Almeria, we have horse riding. And some people decide really quite close to when they want to go. Hey, let's go and do the horse riding tomorrow. But if you don't have real-time availability, it's harder to make that booking or it's more... manual.

Those are challenges that we were experiencing right now.

Fran (17:35): They do, yeah, go on, please.

Neville (17:37): Interestingly, campsites are generally run with quite a limited amount of resources and people, much less than a hotel. That was one of the things that shocked me when I arrived. Hotels have a lot more resources than in operations. So if we have very few resources, they're dedicating their time to this it's time that we're taking from something else which perhaps is at least as important or more important.

Fran (18:01): Yeah. And I remember from all my camping experiences that you have a lot less touch point with the, with the camp site. I, you check in and you check out, but you might not see anyone from reception in the week that you're there. And whereas in a hotel, you pass by the reception every day, perhaps. So

Neville (18:21): Yeah.

Fran (18:21): I think technology becomes even more important than to get it right so that the guest can have interaction with you as a. know, campsite manager or as a resort through technology, if nothing else.

Neville (18:34): Exactly. I mean, this is one of the big issues because actually, normally in a campsite, you pay for your stay when you arrive or you pay even before you arrive. So you don't even have to check out potentially. If you booked a pitch, which is where you put your caravan or your tent, you don't have to hand a key back or anything. So there isn't much interaction. within the campsite during your stay and stays tend to be longer, the average length of stay in some of the seven nights at least.

Fran (19:03): Yeah, yeah.

Neville (19:04): We try to put, one of the things that we try to do is in summer we put an activities corner, so we have a team who try to promote activities within the campsite but you have to go there and campsites are big, it's not like a hotel, campsites are massive, so you might not even know it's there, so that's a bit of a... a challenge we have also.

Fran (19:25): Yeah. And to those challenges, know, the way I think about it is there's something to do about pre-booking, right? So it's before the guests even decided you need to inspire them to come. Then there's something during or after booking, but pre-stay. And then there's the at-stay as well, inspiration. And then there's the whole process of booking, as you said. People, you mentioned book accommodation seamlessly. Maybe they've booked their car rental or camper van rental or flights.

Seamlessly, but then you tell them to book the horse riding that's not gonna be so seamless that there we have to go into a whole you old school conversation and the way we think about it at Turneo is it shouldn't be so we need systems that can accommodate for both small low-tech providers and Big high-tech calendars and providers. It should work for both because that's the only way that guests can actually get exposed to these things and book them. Because I feel like guest expectations have come to the fact that, come on, if I flew from New York to Spain and if I booked the car or the camper van and if I booked your company, seriously, why can't I book a horse riding lesson, right?

Neville (20:36): Definitely. And actually, one of the things that we find is even though we're selling these things on our website, because the process is not ideal, most of the activities are actually sold once the guest arrives. So the pre-sale is less than we would like. So the information is there, the content is there, people know what's available.

But because the booking process is problematic, they don't book. And potentially then they book on site. And receptions have limited amount of resources. So ideally, you would want to take this work away from reception as much as possible.

But in order to do that, the pre-stay, the booking needs to be, we need to improve basically.

Fran (21:31): Yeah. And also I feel like since COVID, all of us, we've started booking things more in advance because COVID's taught us that if you don't book a reserve, you're not going to do it, especially in high season. So I feel like our booking windows have shifted, not drastically. I'm not saying three or six months in advance, although we do see advanced bookings like that as well, but more like a week before, you know, this is where I'm going to plan out my stay if it's high season. And then if you don't have the ability to allow guests to book these. they're going to go and book elsewhere or they're not going to book and then be disappointed perhaps when they arrive because the activities they're looking for won't be available.

Neville (22:08): Exactly.

Fran (22:09): Okay, brilliant. In terms of where you see it going, kind of the future of experiences at Taiga, but also the future of experiential hospitality, any thoughts on those?

Neville (22:21): I mean, experiential hospitality is clearly a massive growth area. And actually one of the things that's interesting, I didn't really mention this, but there's been a study, there was a study made a couple of years ago in European campsites and customers who book experiences as well as rooms are actually providing higher RevPAR because they're also booking more expensive accommodation. So for campsites, it's a win-win. The more experiences you can sell, the more you're going to increase your RevPAR and the more you're going to increase your ancillary revenues as well. And I can envisage a situation where you... rather than just selling your accommodation, you could perhaps be selling a different experience packages initially on your website. I always think of this, if you think of the way a SaaS company sells, I don't mean necessarily in hospitality, but SaaS normally have packages which are standard premium gold with different things included. I can see us moving in that direction.

Whereas we're not just selling a pitch or a tent or a bungalow, we're selling a different experience package, one more basic, one more advanced with more things included. Because I think people are looking for experiences when they travel. They're not just looking for somewhere to sleep. So I can see that happening. We would need technology to be able to do this. So we need.

PMS, booking engine, seamless integration with other systems, which we're definitely not there yet. But that's the way I see things going because it's an area which is potentially very profitable. But the sort of integration of having all your systems speaking to each other and everything being as digital as possible is quite complex.

It's quite complex to set this up. The integrations work, all the systems talk to each other, that everything's as real time as possible. From my perspective, your revenue management system would need to manage not only rooms revenue and not many RMSs do this right now. So there's, I can see where we're going, but how quickly we're going to get there, I'm not sure.

Fran (24:53): There's a lot of work ahead of us, that's what you're saying, think, especially as you mentioned with systems talking to each other. But also I feel like experiences are somewhat different than your flights or than your hotels or rooms because there's so many variations in an experience, know, whether it's private or group, whether it's a person, a unit, a van, whether it's a meal, whether... So there is a lot of specificities to it. but the expectation is that you are able to look at just like anything else. Brilliant. Any final takeaways or thoughts from this conversation that you'd like to share? I found it super interesting. I've written down a lot of things from, if you didn't have it, no one would come to experiences are the thing that people are coming for rather than stay.

Anything else that maybe we haven't touched on, but that you wanted to share.

Neville (25:51): No I don't think so. All I would say is if you've never tried camping you should try it.

Fran (25:59): That is

Neville (26:00): I've been converted.

Fran (26:01): That I fully support and I would say that as well, especially even if you're a family. Sometimes it looks really difficult with small kids, but it's so much easier because you've got everything where you need it to be and then your kids are outside all day, right?

Neville (26:14): Yeah, it's actually for families and Taiga our main segment is families. And it's actually fantastic if you've got small children because it's a safe area. You can basically open the door of your glamping or your mobile home and the kids can run around. They've got activities to do there in a secure environment. They're outside. Not playing on their on their tablet or their mobile phone. Actually, we don't have TVs in our... in our accommodation, because we believe in a sort of outdoors experience. And for families, it's great. And you don't have this freedom in a hotel because you have hours, specific hours for things, and you have to leave the room, and the person wants to come clean, and the lunch is at a certain time, and all these sort of things we don't have. And that's part of the experience, actually, going back to the conversation initially. it's a different experience.

Fran (27:13): Definitely is. So to our audience, go and try camping if you haven't. Neville, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you

Neville (27:20): It's a pleasure.

Fran (27:21): For your time. This was another in a series of conversations on experiential hospitality with Neville Isaac from Taiga Resorts. We'll be back soon with another episode. Thanks everyone for tuning in.